Twokinds Forums

A place to sit around and talk about the comic.
It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:15 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 376 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 26  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:32 pm 
Offline
Templar
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:39 pm
Posts: 352
Location: Chicago, the beautiful city.
I've been seeing, from time to time, this matter popping up in various threads and taking things completely off topic. One thing it always does, though, is draw a great discussion.

And so, this thread is about the relationship between Magic and Technology in the world of TwoKinds.

Anyone wanna go ahead and post a thesis?

_________________
Heavy Decibels are playing on my guitar,
we got vibrations coming up from the floor.
We're just listening to the Rock that's giving too much noise,
Are you deaf, you wanna hear some more?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:41 pm 
Offline
Grand Templar
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:55 am
Posts: 2311
Location: Sage Asuka's box
I don't even have a thesis, yet. I do have a hypothesis, however, and that is simply that the only functions technology serves are those that cannot be easily performed by magic alone.

Every bit of tech we've seen has been because magic can't do it, or can't do it as easily. Swords, shields and armor? Not everyone can use magic, and those that can, presumably, can't use it nonstop. Ships? Teleporting large quantities of goods long distance is difficult and impractical. Airships? Yeah. I'm clueless on this one, too.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:32 pm 
Offline
Citizen

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:34 am
Posts: 52
I believe that technology is used as a replacement for less powerful people, and for enhancements for magic.

One example is the towers, where mana is stored using technology, and the mana sink platform they put onto Trace.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:17 pm 
Offline
The Guy You're Gay For
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 pm
Posts: 4107
Location: Isla Vista, CA
By technology, do you mean non-magic technology? In our world, the science behind technology comes from studying the physical world and the laws it follows, and using this knowledge to advance the capabilities of humankind. Since magic is part of the TwoKinds natural world, by analogy one could argue that the TwoKinds version of technology would also consist of studying the way magic works and advancing its capabilities. In that case, the Templar would be technological innovators.

If, as I imagine you do, you mean non-magical technology that we might find in our own world, then I agree with PhycoKrusk.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:25 pm 
Offline
Grand Templar
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:55 am
Posts: 2311
Location: Sage Asuka's box
Sebbie wrote:
By technology, do you mean non-magic technology? In our world, the science behind technology comes from studying the physical world and the laws it follows, and using this knowledge to advance the capabilities of humankind. Since magic is part of the TwoKinds natural world, by analogy one could argue that the TwoKinds version of technology would also consist of studying the way magic works and advancing its capabilities. In that case, the Templar would be technological innovators.

If, as I imagine you do, you mean non-magical technology that we might find in our own world, then I agree with PhycoKrusk.

That's actually a good point. According to the ol' dictionary:
technology |tekˈnäləjē|
noun ( pl. -gies)
the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, esp. in industry

Going forward, we probably should have a single definition of what "technology" means. While the above definition is the one we're all most familiar with, the conversation might quickly run dry if we restrict ourselves to it. I therefore have two proposals:

1) We broaden the definition of "technology" for this discussion to be, "the application of scientific and magical knowledge for practical purposes, esp. in industry," or

2) We alter the discussion topic to read Magic and Science, rather than Magic and Technology.


Agree? Disagree? Counterproposals?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:07 pm 
Offline
The Guy You're Gay For
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 pm
Posts: 4107
Location: Isla Vista, CA
PhycoKrusk wrote:
Sebbie wrote:
By technology, do you mean non-magic technology? In our world, the science behind technology comes from studying the physical world and the laws it follows, and using this knowledge to advance the capabilities of humankind. Since magic is part of the TwoKinds natural world, by analogy one could argue that the TwoKinds version of technology would also consist of studying the way magic works and advancing its capabilities. In that case, the Templar would be technological innovators.

If, as I imagine you do, you mean non-magical technology that we might find in our own world, then I agree with PhycoKrusk.

That's actually a good point. According to the ol' dictionary:
technology |tekˈnäləjē|
noun ( pl. -gies)
the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, esp. in industry

Going forward, we probably should have a single definition of what "technology" means. While the above definition is the one we're all most familiar with, the conversation might quickly run dry if we restrict ourselves to it. I therefore have two proposals:

1) We broaden the definition of "technology" for this discussion to be, "the application of scientific and magical knowledge for practical purposes, esp. in industry," or

2) We alter the discussion topic to read Magic and Science, rather than Magic and Technology.


Agree? Disagree? Counterproposals?

I like the first definition, but the second one has the same problem; science also consists of the study of the natural world, which in the TwoKinds universe would include magic, so magic and science would be closely linked (technology comes from science, after all). If we want to differentiate between "fictional magic" and "real-world technology," I think the best thing to do is just do the obvious thing and call one magic and one non-magic. Thus the options would be:

1) We broaden the definition of "technology" for this discussion to be, "the application of knowledge of the natural world for practical purposes, esp. in industry," (same as what you said, but different phrasing), or

2) We alter the discussion topic to read Magic and non-Magic Technology, rather than Magic and Technology.

Personally, the second one sounds like a mouthful :P ; I would go for the first option. If someone can think of a better term for "non-magical technology" that avoids the ambiguities discussed above, then I would welcome that too though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:28 pm 
Offline
Grand Templar
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:55 am
Posts: 2311
Location: Sage Asuka's box
Sebbie wrote:
I like the first definition, but the second one has the same problem; science also consists of the study of the natural world, which in the TwoKinds universe would include magic, so magic and science would be closely linked (technology comes from science, after all). If we want to differentiate between "fictional magic" and "real-world technology," I think the best thing to do is just do the obvious thing and call one magic and one non-magic. Thus the options would be:

1) We broaden the definition of "technology" for this discussion to be, "the application of knowledge of the natural world for practical purposes, esp. in industry," (same as what you said, but different phrasing), or

2) We alter the discussion topic to read Magic and non-Magic Technology, rather than Magic and Technology.

Personally, the second one sounds like a mouthful :P ; I would go for the first option. If someone can think of a better term for "non-magical technology" that avoids the ambiguities discussed above, then I would welcome that too though.

I find your views interesting, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. However, I feel fairly confident that the original idea behind the topic was to discuss, as you have it, magical vs. non-magical technology.

Re: the definition in your revised 1, this is tricky because we don't clearly know what in 2kinds is the "natural" world. For example, we have seen on every page that gravitation is certainly part of the natural world, to the point of being a natural law. But magic allows that law to be broken, or at least altered.

I therefore propose that, for this discussion, we use the term "technology" to mean, "the application of scientific knowledge to the physical world for practical purposes, esp. in industry." The part about industry might be key, because if the Templar exist as an order of magi, the ability to use magic is obviously not widespread enough to be practically used in industrial applications (thus explaining why we haven't seen magic used in industrial applications).

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:54 pm 
Offline
The Guy You're Gay For
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 pm
Posts: 4107
Location: Isla Vista, CA
PhycoKrusk wrote:
I find your views interesting, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. However, I feel fairly confident that the original idea behind the topic was to discuss, as you have it, magical vs. non-magical technology.

Re: the definition in your revised 1, this is tricky because we don't clearly know what in 2kinds is the "natural" world. For example, we have seen on every page that gravitation is certainly part of the natural world, to the point of being a natural law. But magic allows that law to be broken, or at least altered.

I therefore propose that, for this discussion, we use the term "technology" to mean, "the application of scientific knowledge to the physical world for practical purposes, esp. in industry." The part about industry might be key, because if the Templar exist as an order of magi, the ability to use magic is obviously not widespread enough to be practically used in industrial applications (thus explaining why we haven't seen magic used in industrial applications).

The subscription fee to my newsletter is $30 for a full year (12 issues), or $55 for two years (24 issues) and a free TwoKinds plushie!* In addition, there is a $20 membership fee to the Sebbie fanclub, which is a prerequisite for all subscription services.
*Offer not available in all areas. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions apply.

Ahem. I actually did originally have physical instead of natural in the definition, but then decided to change it to natural because physical seems to deal only with the material world, while natural seems to include any supernatural effects caused by, say, the masks (as long as they can be confirmed via the scientific method, of course). In your counterexample, I wouldn't consider the natural law of gravity violated; rather, the TwoKinds law of gravity is superceded by some law of magic or what have you, which can modify it (just like certain phenomena we believed to be "laws" in our world have been broken by discovering more fundamental effects). I suppose I'm asking you what your opinion is on the difference between "physical" and "natural."

As for the part about industry, it is incredibly key; it should definitely be part of the definition (In fact, it's what I'd like to discuss the most when we finally get our definitions set up :grin: ).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:08 pm 
Offline
Templar Inner Circle
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:29 am
Posts: 3003
Location: Somewhere Amongst The Clouds
Actually I have a problem with using the world "natural" as well...

But is physical the right word to use here? I mean we know there is another world in another dimension than TK...the one where all those demigods live. Can we call their interferences a part of the physical world?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:18 pm 
Offline
Council Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:39 pm
Posts: 543
Location: In the recesses of your subconscious
I agree to PhycoKrusk's solution of
PhycoKrusk wrote:
"the application of scientific knowledge to the physical world for practical purposes, esp. in industry."

However, I suggest we classify these technologies depending on their individual use (not just industrial). For example:

Trebuchets, catapults, etc. - Technology for the use of war (though I know we haven't really seen any of those things. I'm just using them as an example, as something along their lines probably exists somewhere)
Plows, mills, cranes, etc. - Technology used for industrial growth (again, example)

Concerning the issue of when magic comes into play, I believe technology will remain technology even if magic is added.
If an object is given a magical property, then one could say that said particular object becomes "magic-utilizing." The Templar have great prowess with magic (as they were originally a guild of mages) and, as of late, seem to have begun using magic in otherwise non-magical objects.

However, the only examples of this I have seen are the tower(s) and possibly the mana sink (as they are combination of architecture and magic).
Also, it is important to note that the Master Architect created the mana sink and probably also deserves credit for the creation of the towers. From this, I have reason to believe that "adding magic" to something, isn't as easy as it sounds. One would have to be well-versed with the nature of magic and be able, as well as know how, to properly infuse it with something.

_________________
TOO MANY ANSEMS


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:19 pm 
Offline
The Guy You're Gay For
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 pm
Posts: 4107
Location: Isla Vista, CA
WindDragon wrote:
Actually I have a problem with using the world "natural" as well...

But is physical the right word to use here? I mean we know there is another world in another dimension than TK...the one where all those demigods live. Can we call their interferences a part of the physical world?

It really depends on what exactly we're trying to convey. I'm a scientist, so I take the scientific approach in my definitions: anything that can be observed in some way is part of the natural world; these observations must be independent of the observer; any theories explaining how the natural world behaves must be repeatable, falsifiable, and consistent with observations. The physical world is basically the same thing as the natural world (in our reality, I would consider the two synonyms), but I decided to go with natural to make it clear that I include the influence of entities like the masks in my definition.

I'm perfectly happy using an alternate definition of either (or both) words for the sake of this thread, as long as it's clearly specified. Consider the above to be my suggested definition of the natural world.

EDIT:
RandomGamer92 wrote:
I agree to PhycoKrusk's solution of
PhycoKrusk wrote:
"the application of scientific knowledge to the physical world for practical purposes, esp. in industry."

I'm fine with that as long as we have clear definitions of "science" and what constitutes the "physical" world, since it appears we're working under different assumptions of what those words mean.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:22 pm 
Offline
Templar Inner Circle
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:29 am
Posts: 3003
Location: Somewhere Amongst The Clouds
Ok yeah, I agree...

In this case, albeit, Natural seems to be the more fitting term to use...Objections? Or are we going to agree on that and get onto topic now?

awesome, you're a scientist?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:30 pm 
Offline
The Guy You're Gay For
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 pm
Posts: 4107
Location: Isla Vista, CA
WindDragon wrote:
Ok yeah, I agree...

In this case, albeit, Natural seems to be the more fitting term to use...Objections? Or are we going to agree on that and get onto topic now?

awesome, you're a scientist?

OK, so if everyone agrees with the definition of "technology" to be:

technology - the application of knowledge of the natural world for practical purposes, esp. in industry,

with "natural" defined as in my previous post, then we're set to go.

Yes indeedy I am..well, depending on how much education I need to be considered a full-fledged scientist. I'm a senior physics major, and I've been doing research for LIGO for the past year. We're looking for gravitational waves; how cool is that!?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:34 pm 
Offline
Templar Inner Circle
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:29 am
Posts: 3003
Location: Somewhere Amongst The Clouds
I agree...maybe we should just start on the conversation without the others?

Gravitational waves...nice. Looking as in trying to see them, or looking as in trying to discover something about them?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Magic and Technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:42 pm 
Offline
The Guy You're Gay For
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 pm
Posts: 4107
Location: Isla Vista, CA
WindDragon wrote:
I agree...maybe we should just start on the conversation without the others?

Gravitational waves...nice. Looking as in trying to see them, or looking as in trying to discover something about them?

Agreed. So, how do you suppose the development of technology proceeds in the TwoKinds world? The setting appears to resemble our medieval times, which were characterized by relative stagnation from the technological viewpoint, but then the Templar towers and the Master Architect's mana sink appear to be recent developments, which indicates that technological innovation has indeed been occurring and is possibly encouraged.

Looking as in trying to detect them directly as evidence of Einstein's theory of General Relativity, and then using them as a new way of studying the universe. I'm working on detecting black hole-black hole collisions, myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 376 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 26  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group