Magic and Technology

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avwolf
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Re: Magic and Technology

#46 Post by avwolf »

Sebbie wrote:
WindDragon wrote:This is partly the reason why I feel the Templars built these humongous, ominous looking towers in the first place. 25% because they had an actual purpose and 75% because it would instill fear (or at least awe).
Yeah, I think the Towers now stand mainly as symbols of the Templar's might and dominance. It's possible that they're also storing energy for when (if?) the Templar launch a full-out offensive attack on the other races, but in the long run the main effect of the Towers is to remind everyone who's in charge.
There more to it than that. You guys are slipping -- you don't recall the Templar's reason to hunt Trace instead of letting him disappear into a quiet life and you're forgetting Euchre's words. The Templar may not be able to win a traditional ground war against the Keidran. They might, but I don't think they're confident, and they know that one should never pick a fight unless it's a sure thing. Which is what the Towers are designed to do: to make winning the war into a sure thing. Once they have Trace, they are planning to use him to construct the "final Tower," and that spells the end of the Keidran. ...They're...Oh, God...They're going to throw every Keidran everywhere feral...They're going to remove upper thought processes and thus military organization from the entirety of the Keidran. That must be what Euchre meant.

Another thing to remember is that the Templar know full well that the only way they'd win a war against Basitins is if it was a war of attrition. And considering how tough Basitins are, they'd probably destroy the Templar before they could be beaten. The Basitins have the means and capability to land soldiers, establish a beachhead, and pound through anything the Humans can throw at them. A united Basidian people is a nightmare scenario for the Templar.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#47 Post by Schrodinger »

avwolf wrote:
Sebbie wrote:
WindDragon wrote:This is partly the reason why I feel the Templars built these humongous, ominous looking towers in the first place. 25% because they had an actual purpose and 75% because it would instill fear (or at least awe).
Yeah, I think the Towers now stand mainly as symbols of the Templar's might and dominance. It's possible that they're also storing energy for when (if?) the Templar launch a full-out offensive attack on the other races, but in the long run the main effect of the Towers is to remind everyone who's in charge.
There more to it than that. You guys are slipping -- you don't recall the Templar's reason to hunt Trace instead of letting him disappear into a quiet life and you're forgetting Euchre's words. The Templar may not be able to win a traditional ground war against the Keidran. They might, but I don't think they're confident, and they know that one should never pick a fight unless it's a sure thing. Which is what the Towers are designed to do: to make winning the war into a sure thing. Once they have Trace, they are planning to use him to construct the "final Tower," and that spells the end of the Keidran. ...They're...Oh, God...They're going to throw every Keidran everywhere feral...They're going to remove upper thought processes and thus military organization from the entirety of the Keidran. That must be what Euchre meant.

Another thing to remember is that the Templar know full well that the only way they'd win a war against Basitins is if it was a war of attrition. And considering how tough Basitins are, they'd probably destroy the Templar before they could be beaten. The Basitins have the means and capability to land soldiers, establish a beachhead, and pound through anything the Humans can throw at them. A united Basidian people is a nightmare scenario for the Templar.
Good work, Av. Those were my thoughts exactly.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#48 Post by coal »

That does seem to make sense ave!, and it actually sounds like something I could see happening in the comic.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#49 Post by PhycoKrusk »

It would also stand as further proof that Trace is nuts, if that's his plan. In my opinion, at least. It makes good strategic sense.

It makes absolutely zero economic sense, because they'd be losing a relatively abundant, renewable source of inexpensive manual labor. It would make more sense, economically, to use the towers not to make all Keidran go feral, but to put them all under the effect of a control spell. That, however, doesn't make good strategic sense, because then remains the risks of the spell losing effectiveness at some point in the future, and then you're back to the original problem.

Here is a case where economic and military goals are at odds with each other. Here is also a case where the complex web of alliances and betrayals within the Templar hierarchy become even more complex. What is/was everyone really after?
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Re: Magic and Technology

#50 Post by Sebbie »

Leave it to av to show us up!
PhycoKrusk wrote:It would also stand as further proof that Trace is nuts, if that's his plan. In my opinion, at least. It makes good strategic sense.

It makes absolutely zero economic sense, because they'd be losing a relatively abundant, renewable source of inexpensive manual labor. It would make more sense, economically, to use the towers not to make all Keidran go feral, but to put them all under the effect of a control spell. That, however, doesn't make good strategic sense, because then remains the risks of the spell losing effectiveness at some point in the future, and then you're back to the original problem.
I don't know how valuable the Keidran really are as a source of manual labor. From what we've seen so far, it seems like Keidran slaves are little more than servants; they're not a key to the human economy. Besides, they're easily replaceable: if you're rich enough to buy a slave, you're probably rich enough to hire a human servant/butler/whatever. No, I think if the Templar are to choose between mass enslavement and obliteration of the Keidran, the clear choice is obliteration.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#51 Post by Brocktree »

avwolf wrote:
Sebbie wrote:
WindDragon wrote:This is partly the reason why I feel the Templars built these humongous, ominous looking towers in the first place. 25% because they had an actual purpose and 75% because it would instill fear (or at least awe).
Yeah, I think the Towers now stand mainly as symbols of the Templar's might and dominance. It's possible that they're also storing energy for when (if?) the Templar launch a full-out offensive attack on the other races, but in the long run the main effect of the Towers is to remind everyone who's in charge.
There more to it than that. You guys are slipping -- you don't recall the Templar's reason to hunt Trace instead of letting him disappear into a quiet life and you're forgetting Euchre's words. The Templar may not be able to win a traditional ground war against the Keidran. They might, but I don't think they're confident, and they know that one should never pick a fight unless it's a sure thing. Which is what the Towers are designed to do: to make winning the war into a sure thing. Once they have Trace, they are planning to use him to construct the "final Tower," and that spells the end of the Keidran. ...They're...Oh, God...They're going to throw every Keidran everywhere feral...They're going to remove upper thought processes and thus military organization from the entirety of the Keidran. That must be what Euchre meant.

Another thing to remember is that the Templar know full well that the only way they'd win a war against Basitins is if it was a war of attrition. And considering how tough Basitins are, they'd probably destroy the Templar before they could be beaten. The Basitins have the means and capability to land soldiers, establish a beachhead, and pound through anything the Humans can throw at them. A united Basidian people is a nightmare scenario for the Templar.
How do you figure?
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Re: Magic and Technology

#52 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:I don't know how valuable the Keidran really are as a source of manual labor. From what we've seen so far, it seems like Keidran slaves are little more than servants; they're not a key to the human economy. Besides, they're easily replaceable: if you're rich enough to buy a slave, you're probably rich enough to hire a human servant/butler/whatever. No, I think if the Templar are to choose between mass enslavement and obliteration of the Keidran, the clear choice is obliteration.
In the long-run, a slave is less expensive. The best comparison is comparing human labor to machine labor. The initial investment (the purchase price) is higher, but in the long-run, it's less expensive because all you have to pay for is maintenance (food and board). Even employed in a service application, its less expensive, because again, all you need to pay for is maintenance. This was the case in the Antebellum American South. If it wasn't cheaper to use slaves for domestic staff, nobody would have done it. Additionally, if the Templar are expanding as an economic power, then a large slave labor force is a good way to do it, because, again, it's much less expensive. Economically, mass enslavement is the most sensible strategy. It also provides a handy propaganda tool to keep the masses happy, but that's moving into the social and political dimensions and outside the scope here. This is why having a discussion about one aspect of the 2k world has proven as difficult as it has; because everything overlaps, at least a little bit.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#53 Post by Sithil »

PhycoKrusk wrote:It would also stand as further proof that Trace is nuts, if that's his plan. In my opinion, at least. It makes good strategic sense.

It makes absolutely zero economic sense, because they'd be losing a relatively abundant, renewable source of inexpensive manual labor. It would make more sense, economically, to use the towers not to make all Keidran go feral, but to put them all under the effect of a control spell. That, however, doesn't make good strategic sense, because then remains the risks of the spell losing effectiveness at some point in the future, and then you're back to the original problem.

Here is a case where economic and military goals are at odds with each other. Here is also a case where the complex web of alliances and betrayals within the Templar hierarchy become even more complex. What is/was everyone really after?
You're forgetting something, Phyco. The Basitins. The Basitins were supposed to all be 'lobotomized' from weilding the magic of the Templar Tower. And what makes better slaves than tough creatures with limited free will(caused by the necklaces we've previously been introduced to)? Tougher creatures with no free will what so ever. Trace had it all planned out, he was going to make Humans the world's supreme race, with no enemies and a stable economy, and himself at the top of the hierarchy as ruler and the most powerful Human alive.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#54 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote: In the long-run, a slave is less expensive. The best comparison is comparing human labor to machine labor. The initial investment (the purchase price) is higher, but in the long-run, it's less expensive because all you have to pay for is maintenance (food and board). Even employed in a service application, its less expensive, because again, all you need to pay for is maintenance. This was the case in the Antebellum American South. If it wasn't cheaper to use slaves for domestic staff, nobody would have done it. Additionally, if the Templar are expanding as an economic power, then a large slave labor force is a good way to do it, because, again, it's much less expensive. Economically, mass enslavement is the most sensible strategy. It also provides a handy propaganda tool to keep the masses happy, but that's moving into the social and political dimensions and outside the scope here. This is why having a discussion about one aspect of the 2k world has proven as difficult as it has; because everything overlaps, at least a little bit.
I have no doubts that Keidran slave labor would be less expensive in the long run, but the point is that right now, the human economy doesn't hinge on it; it's more of a commodity than anything else. If the current Keidran slaves were to suddenly disappear, I doubt the human economy would feel much of a repercussion at all. Since, as you pointed out, enslaving the entire Keidran population with mass control spells would be incredibly risky in case they ever failed, it would be more strategic to get rid of the Keidran now, when the human economy wouldn't really be harmed by their loss at all.

Besides, Sithil makes an excellent point. Keidran slaves still possess their free will, whether they're under control spells or not. As Vehra showed us, Basitins who have been corrupted by magic can barely speak anymore, let alone think for themselves. If the Templar did decide they wanted a population of slaves to serve the humans (which I don't think they really need, anyway), then the Basitins would be the more logical choice, because there'd never be any risk of them rebelling.

I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say that mass enslavement "...provides a handy propaganda tool to keep the masses happy..."; care to elaborate? And I have no problem moving into social and political dimensions. As you say, everything overlaps.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#55 Post by Sleight of Word »

Hooray! A thread of mine really got off the ground.
Sebbie wrote:I have no doubts that Keidran slave labor would be less expensive in the long run, but the point is that right now, the human economy doesn't hinge on it; it's more of a commodity than anything else. If the current Keidran slaves were to suddenly disappear, I doubt the human economy would feel much of a repercussion at all. Since, as you pointed out, enslaving the entire Keidran population with mass control spells would be incredibly risky in case they ever failed, it would be more strategic to get rid of the Keidran now, when the human economy wouldn't really be harmed by their loss at all.
Well, we really haven't seen too much about this. We haven't seen any mines or lumber yards where the humans get the resources to sustain they're enlarging population. It could very well be that the human economy is based quite a bit on slave labor, especially the culture of businesses. That being said, the whole "basitin slave" concept would rather fix the problem if the keidran were all fer-talized.

hmm. Something just occured to me. I suppose a big difference between keidran and basitin is that when keidran get their higher mind taken away, they become beasts. But when the same thing happens to basitin, they become somewhat empty shells. Interesting.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#56 Post by Sebbie »

Sleight of Word wrote:
Sebbie wrote:I have no doubts that Keidran slave labor would be less expensive in the long run, but the point is that right now, the human economy doesn't hinge on it; it's more of a commodity than anything else. If the current Keidran slaves were to suddenly disappear, I doubt the human economy would feel much of a repercussion at all. Since, as you pointed out, enslaving the entire Keidran population with mass control spells would be incredibly risky in case they ever failed, it would be more strategic to get rid of the Keidran now, when the human economy wouldn't really be harmed by their loss at all.
Well, we really haven't seen too much about this. We haven't seen any mines or lumber yards where the humans get the resources to sustain they're enlarging population. It could very well be that the human economy is based quite a bit on slave labor, especially the culture of businesses. That being said, the whole "basitin slave" concept would rather fix the problem if the keidran were all fer-talized.
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clearer; I was just drawing assumptions based on what few details we were shown. The only Keidran slaves we've seen are Kat, Mike, Evals, and young Flora in a couple of flashbacks (am I missing any?). They all seem to be servants more than organized manual labor. Of course, if we were to learn that Keidran slave labor did play a larger role than what I assumed, then my argument would be invalid. But as you say, if this were indeed the case, the Basitins could probably replace the Keidran as the primary source of slave labor if the Templar's plans were to go to completion.
Sleight of Word wrote:hmm. Something just occured to me. I suppose a big difference between keidran and basitin is that when keidran get their higher mind taken away, they become beasts. But when the same thing happens to basitin, they become somewhat empty shells. Interesting.
What about what's happening to Alabaster right now? He's fairly beastly. I think that magic doesn't just take away the Basitin's higher brain functions, it gradually takes away all of them, minus the bare essentials they need to stay alive. It basically turns them into vegetables. But more interesting is the question your statement implies: do Keidran and Basitin share the same "primal" instincts? I would think not; they may look similar (to us furless humans anyway :wink: ), but they are in fact drastically different peoples.

On a sidenote, the grammar Nazi in me needs a question answered: is the plural of Basitin "Basitins" or "Basitin?"

EDIT: Nice avatar, Sleight. Thought I'd share this.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#57 Post by Sleight of Word »

Sebbie wrote:What about what's happening to Alabaster right now? He's fairly beastly. I think that magic doesn't just take away the Basitin's higher brain functions, it gradually takes away all of them, minus the bare essentials they need to stay alive. It basically turns them into vegetables. But more interesting is the question your statement implies: do Keidran and Basitin share the same "primal" instincts? I would think not; they may look similar (to us furless humans anyway :wink: ), but they are in fact drastically different peoples.
Well, biologically, Basitin follow orders down to the letter and have a strong sense of honor, duty and commitment.

Keidran are slightly (read, LARGELY) different from the basitins, or basitin, or basiti. They are free-willed and born swingers. It makes sense that if they act totally different usually, they will act differently when a variable is introduced. (the no-higher-function variable.)
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Re: Magic and Technology

#58 Post by Sebbie »

Sleight of Word wrote:Keidran are slightly (read, LARGELY) different from the basitins, or basitin, or basiti. They are free-willed and born swingers. It makes sense that if they act totally different usually, they will act differently when a variable is introduced. (the no-higher-function variable.)
True, but more to the point is the fact that I think that what magic does to a Basitin's mind is not the equivalent of the Keidran going feral; basically, the variable you're introducing is not the same for the two phenomena.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#59 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say that mass enslavement "...provides a handy propaganda tool to keep the masses happy..."; care to elaborate? And I have no problem moving into social and political dimensions. As you say, everything overlaps.
I might be stretching this a bit, just fair warning, and it's especially tricky because outside of service providers (shop keeps, etc.) we haven't seen how much of the Human economy is built. We don't know how extensive the need for unskilled, manual labor is. But assuming it is there, the propaganda (and the stretch) is this; slave labor puts people out of work. This is an established fact. But if you build up a mythology around it, that doesn't matter so much.

Someone may be out of work, but even if they're destitute, they're still better than a Keidran, so despite being destitute, they can't really be that bad off. It's propaganda that serves to hand-wave a socioeconomic problem away by downplaying it, and by distracting from it (the destitute Human may, in fact, be worse off than the Keidran slave, because the Keidran at least has shelter and food, while the Human may not have either).

(As I said this goes heavily into the sociopolitical dimension and has very little to do with technology, which I why I wasn't keen on introducing it here. Also, it's kind of preachy and boring)
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Re: Magic and Technology

#60 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote:I might be stretching this a bit, just fair warning, and it's especially tricky because outside of service providers (shop keeps, etc.) we haven't seen how much of the Human economy is built. We don't know how extensive the need for unskilled, manual labor is. But assuming it is there, the propaganda (and the stretch) is this; slave labor puts people out of work. This is an established fact. But if you build up a mythology around it, that doesn't matter so much.

Someone may be out of work, but even if they're destitute, they're still better than a Keidran, so despite being destitute, they can't really be that bad off. It's propaganda that serves to hand-wave a socioeconomic problem away by downplaying it, and by distracting from it (the destitute Human may, in fact, be worse off than the Keidran slave, because the Keidran at least has shelter and food, while the Human may not have either).
So you're basically saying that by shunning Keidran into the lowest caste of society, all humans, no matter what their socioeconomic standing, will be above them, and therefore don't feel as resentful of the higher classes? I suppose that makes sense, but as you said, whether or not it's relevant is difficult to determine due to our lack of detailed knowledge of the human economy.
PhycoKrusk wrote:(As I said this goes heavily into the sociopolitical dimension and has very little to do with technology, which I why I wasn't keen on introducing it here. Also, it's kind of preachy and boring)
I don't find it preachy and boring, but I suppose it is off-topic. Hmm...in an attempt to get us back on track, I will repeat the following question, which I never got a good thorough answer to because of our off-topic tangent:
Sebbie wrote:What if the world comes into balance; will the development of technology, both magical and not, continue? Will the three races develop a stable global economy? More importantly, will the technological developments of the races follow similar paths through exchange of ideas and technology in a new era of peace, or will each develop in their own direction: humans and Keidran developing a technology based on magic, Basitins instead developing non-magical technology similar to that in our world?

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