Magic and Technology

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WindDragon
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Re: Magic and Technology

#16 Post by WindDragon »

Well I'd imagine that because of the ability to use magic, certain advancements never occurred, whether the problem behind them never arose, or magic substituted an answer. Therefore, while it would seem that swords and arrows are out of date, the ability to enhance them using magic has eradicated the need to develop gunpowder. Meanwhile, the constant use of magic by Templars has created the problem of having a constant supply of magic. Temples were created that they could always have a power source to which they could drain mana from...

Black Holes...that's a nice topic. Learned anything yet?
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Re: Magic and Technology

#17 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:Ahem. I actually did originally have physical instead of natural in the definition, but then decided to change it to natural because physical seems to deal only with the material world, while natural seems to include any supernatural effects caused by, say, the masks (as long as they can be confirmed via the scientific method, of course). In your counterexample, I wouldn't consider the natural law of gravity violated; rather, the TwoKinds law of gravity is superceded by some law of magic or what have you, which can modify it (just like certain phenomena we believed to be "laws" in our world have been broken by discovering more fundamental effects). I suppose I'm asking you what your opinion is on the difference between "physical" and "natural."
If something is "supernatural," then by definition, is it not in violation of one or more natural laws since it doesn't obey them? Sort of a nitpick, so moving on.
Sebbie wrote:Agreed. So, how do you suppose the development of technology proceeds in the TwoKinds world? The setting appears to resemble our medieval times, which were characterized by relative stagnation from the technological viewpoint, but then the Templar towers and the Master Architect's mana sink appear to be recent developments, which indicates that technological innovation has indeed been occurring and is possibly encouraged.
I still find it important to note that, thanks to magic, technological innovation has stagnated. Using magic, you can keep your beer cold. Why the heck would you need an "icebox" to do the same thing? Furthermore, the world as a whole does not appear to show much development in the studies of markets and economics, which were (and still are) two driving forces behind technological innovation, and I'm not sure it's possible to have a meaningful discussion of technology without at least mentioning them.
Sebbie wrote:Looking as in trying to detect them directly as evidence of Einstein's theory of General Relativity, and then using them as a new way of studying the universe. I'm working on detecting black hole-black hole collisions, myself.
What about gravitons? Any luck there? Unrelatedly, Bad Astronomy FTW.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#18 Post by WindDragon »

Ok then...well let's look at Markets and Economy.

As far as I know, it seems like the buying and selling of goods has become predominant over bartering. With currency, the need falls on goods being produced that will not only be of use to people, but also attract those who normally wouldn't buy it. Here's where magic can come in again. Magic not only solves a wide variety of common problems (such as your example with the beer) but also the ability to change the world around you seems to be a common attraction point. Another one is the ability to have great power.
The thing here is that it doesn't seem like economics plays a big role in this world. So far, the templars appear to do whatever they want and we haven't really seen a Keidran village so I can't really say if they use markets or not. Basitins are too stuck up to deal with Keidran (and Humans rarely ever come to the islands) so it doesn't seem like there's much of a chance for different civilizations to trade. In our world, early civilizations had much influence on each other because they constantly traded not only new goods that others had no access to, but they also traded ideas and discoveries. If the Keidran, Basitin, and Humans stay separate from each other, we're not going to see this kind of development.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#19 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote: I still find it important to note that, thanks to magic, technological innovation has stagnated. Using magic, you can keep your beer cold. Why the heck would you need an "icebox" to do the same thing? Furthermore, the world as a whole does not appear to show much development in the studies of markets and economics, which were (and still are) two driving forces behind technological innovation, and I'm not sure it's possible to have a meaningful discussion of technology without at least mentioning them.
Well, by the above definitions, using magic to cool beer is technology, so it's not that magic made technological innovation stagnate, it just made it develop in a different direction than in our world. Like WindDragon said, whereas we developed gunpowder, they developed magicked arrows. Still technology, just different.

I completely agree that a discussion of economics is crucial. For example, from the Basitin's reaction when Trace payed them with Templar gold, we can gather that the Templar are beginning to become not only a strong military force, but an economic one as well. Given their recent technological advances, could this mean that (assuming the Templar keep doing what they're doing and ignoring the story line for the time being) the TwoKinds world might be approaching some kind of industrial revlution?
PhycoKrusk wrote: What about gravitons? Any luck there? Unrelatedly, Bad Astronomy FTW.
WindDragon wrote:Black Holes...that's a nice topic. Learned anything yet?
Gravitons are a quantum thing; there's been no direct observation of them, and if there ever will be it'll be in a particle physics experiment. We're just looking for the waves in spacetime. No success yet, but in 2014 (hopefully) the new-and-improved detector is going to go online, and that's expected to give some detections. I've been learning a ton just doing my work though :grin:


POST-NINJA EDIT:
WindDragon wrote: If the Keidran, Basitin, and Humans stay separate from each other, we're not going to see this kind of development.
Indeed, but as I said here, there are signs that the Templar might be becoming an economic power.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#20 Post by WindDragon »

Industrial revolution...perhaps the Templars are reaching it, but it'll be interesting to see how that works with the additions of mana towers. I mean look at the Basitins...if they are so easily corrupted by the magic, is it possible that the Templars could control them to do their bidding? Will the Templars use the Basitins as slaves (or something along the lines as such)?



I'm actually quite amazed with your field of study. Just wish I knew more...my 15 year old brain can only understand so much
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Re: Magic and Technology

#21 Post by Sebbie »

WindDragon wrote:Industrial revolution...perhaps the Templars are reaching it, but it'll be interesting to see how that works with the additions of mana towers. I mean look at the Basitins...if they are so easily corrupted by the magic, is it possible that the Templars could control them to do their bidding? Will the Templars use the Basitins as slaves (or something along the lines as such)?
Well, the whole point of building the mana tower on the Basidian islands was to rot the Basitin from the inside out so they wouldn't put up a fight when the Templar attacked, so yes, the Templar are planning to control and eventually destroy the Basitin (well, they were before Trace lost his memory, anyway...). Based on Vehra's story, I wouldn't be surprised if the Templar did use the Basitin as slaves.

When I said industrial revolution, I was only thinking from the human side, but your response made me wonder how the Keidran would react to it...and I suppose, if the Basitin did get the Templar out of their islands, how they might handle it as well. They would need to develop non-magical technologies to compete with those of the Templar. It could get interesting.
WindDragon wrote:I'm actually quite amazed with your field of study. Just wish I knew more...my 15 year old brain can only understand so much
Thanks, it's pretty cool. If you're really interesting you can probably Google LIGO or LSC or gravitational wave astronomy or something, there are plenty of very nice straightforward descriptions of the project out there.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#22 Post by PhycoKrusk »

WindDragon wrote:Ok then...well let's look at Markets and Economy.
Okay.
WindDragon wrote:As far as I know, it seems like the buying and selling of goods has become predominant over bartering. With currency, the need falls on goods being produced that will not only be of use to people, but also attract those who normally wouldn't buy it.
This holds true if and only if people, as a whole, have disposable income. If no one can afford to buy it, then you can't afford to sell it. While this appears to be the case for at least some, it may not be the case for all. Even though the majority of raw material production does not appear to be done by Keidran slave labor, most people are probably not exceptionally wealthy.
WindDragon wrote:Here's where magic can come in again. Magic not only solves a wide variety of common problems (such as your example with the beer) but also the ability to change the world around you seems to be a common attraction point. Another one is the ability to have great power.
Things that technology has commonly been used for. There is magic, ergo, there is no comparative technology because it's not necessary.
WindDragon wrote:The thing here is that it doesn't seem like economics plays a big role in this world. So far, the templars appear to do whatever they want and we haven't really seen a Keidran village so I can't really say if they use markets or not. Basitins are too stuck up to deal with Keidran (and Humans rarely ever come to the islands) so it doesn't seem like there's much of a chance for different civilizations to trade.
Economics always plays a role. However, as a discipline, it's not very developed here. A lot of development in economic theory came about as a logical response to the rise of markets and capitalism, because economics is all about figuring out the most efficient way to allocate scarce resources. Again, we blame magic. If magic can turn wood into iron, then iron is only as scarce as wood. If magic can change mana directly into wood, then wood is only as scarce as mana. If mana cannot be permanently depleted, then mana is not scarce, ergo, wood is not scarce, ergo, iron is not scarce, ceteris paribus. If resources are not scarce, then you don't need technology that can more efficiently utilize those resources (I study business and technology, can you tell?)
WindDragon wrote:In our world, early civilizations had much influence on each other because they constantly traded not only new goods that others had no access to, but they also traded ideas and discoveries. If the Keidran, Basitin, and Humans stay separate from each other, we're not going to see this kind of development.
Maybe that's exactly what the masks want. After all, if everyone starts swapping ideas, they might figure out the masks exist, and want to move in on their turf. The top of the food chain, no matter how benevolent, never, ever shares.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#23 Post by WindDragon »

Ah...magic may not be scarce, but if the Templars somehow hold a monopoly over them, and magic is as widely used as we claim it to be, then we could be in trouble. I mean, the Templar aren't the most trustworthy people, so we can't say that they will price mana crystals fairly. What if the Templars priced mana crystals low for people who they wanted to have access to it, while raising the price to those who they don't want to have it. If I'm right and communications between different people are weak and rarely happen, then the citizens probably wouldn't know better...
Another idea: perhaps mana towers are placed for strategic benefits rather than economic benefits. What if the Templars built the Basitin tower in order to corrupt the Basitins? What if the other tower in the city was built to instill some sense of fear into its people and to anyone else who had the slightest intention to cause trouble? So we can't base all the Templar's actions on economy alone...


Oh yeah, and curse you people who specialize in fields while I'm still learning general knowledge studies!
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Re: Magic and Technology

#24 Post by PhycoKrusk »

WindDragon wrote:Ah...magic may not be scarce, but if the Templars somehow hold a monopoly over them, and magic is as widely used as we claim it to be, then we could be in trouble. I mean, the Templar aren't the most trustworthy people, so we can't say that they will price mana crystals fairly. What if the Templars priced mana crystals low for people who they wanted to have access to it, while raising the price to those who they don't want to have it. If I'm right and communications between different people are weak and rarely happen, then the citizens probably wouldn't know better...
Why would the Templar price mana crystals at all? After they take over everything, simply require all magic applications to be performed either by a Templar, or by an agent appointed to act on their behalf. The more power you take out of the hands of the common folk, the easier it is to control them.
WindDragon wrote:Another idea: perhaps mana towers are placed for strategic benefits rather than economic benefits. What if the Templars built the Basitin tower in order to corrupt the Basitins? What if the other tower in the city was built to instill some sense of fear into its people and to anyone else who had the slightest intention to cause trouble? So we can't base all the Templar's actions on economy alone...
Why not place them for both benefits? Place the tower, corrupt the Basitins, and once you've moved in and taken over, you have an excellent economic resource as well as a defensive one. Plus, it's a symbol of Templar power, become a socio-political resource.

Let it be said right now: Trace Legacy is damn smart when he wants to be.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#25 Post by WindDragon »

Let it be said right now: Trace Legacy is damn smart when he wants to be.[/quote]

Oh no argument there :wink:

however, if the Templars kept all the magic to themselves, wouldn't the other communities start getting suspicious about what they are doing with the magic? I mean, the Basitins were already jealous when they couldn't get magic (probably due to their isolation on the island). What if humans and Keidran also didn't have access to magic? I mean, the Templars are already losing trust among all races, so if they horded all the magic, it strategically wouldn't make quite sense (although if they did have magic, they could easily overpower the others...unless sheer numbers did them in)
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Re: Magic and Technology

#26 Post by PhycoKrusk »

WindDragon wrote:however, if the Templars kept all the magic to themselves, wouldn't the other communities start getting suspicious about what they are doing with the magic? I mean, the Basitins were already jealous when they couldn't get magic (probably due to their isolation on the island). What if humans and Keidran also didn't have access to magic? I mean, the Templars are already losing trust among all races, so if they horded all the magic, it strategically wouldn't make quite sense (although if they did have magic, they could easily overpower the others...unless sheer numbers did them in)
You need to remember, Humans are in 2k are ruled by a King. Replacing the King with the Grand Templar would not be that much of an upset of the status quo. The tower would've made the Basitins an ideal slave race. It has been conjectured between Randal and Euchre that if the final tower is completed, it'll be the end of the Keidran race as well. From there, with no "alien" threats to worry about, the Templar would be free to then use the towers to subvert Human will. Mana towers are, in essence, the steps in the proof that Trace Legacy intends to use to derive the Anti-Life Equation. However, to go back to Sebbie's point (one of them), if that doesn't work, then economics will. Magic is a powerful tool, and control of magic, especially through a monopoly as you suggested, would cement them as an economic powerhouse. And once you control the economy, you control the world.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#27 Post by supervanman64 »

PhycoKrusk wrote:
WindDragon wrote:however, if the Templars kept all the magic to themselves, wouldn't the other communities start getting suspicious about what they are doing with the magic? I mean, the Basitins were already jealous when they couldn't get magic (probably due to their isolation on the island). What if humans and Keidran also didn't have access to magic? I mean, the Templars are already losing trust among all races, so if they horded all the magic, it strategically wouldn't make quite sense (although if they did have magic, they could easily overpower the others...unless sheer numbers did them in)
You need to remember, Humans are in 2k are ruled by a King. Replacing the King with the Grand Templar would not be that much of an upset of the status quo. The tower would've made the Basitins an ideal slave race. It has been conjectured between Randal and Euchre that if the final tower is completed, it'll be the end of the Keidran race as well. From there, with no "alien" threats to worry about, the Templar would be free to then use the towers to subvert Human will. Mana towers are, in essence, the steps in the proof that Trace Legacy intends to use to derive the Anti-Life Equation. However, to go back to Sebbie's point (one of them), if that doesn't work, then economics will. Magic is a powerful tool, and control of magic, especially through a monopoly as you suggested, would cement them as an economic powerhouse. And once you control the economy, you control the world.
Anyone else get a chill up their spine reading this? I know I did.

The fact that the Templar have gotten this far with taking over the world is quite an amazing feat to me.
PhycoKrusk wrote:Let it be said right now: Trace Legacy is damn smart when he wants to be.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#28 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote:Let it be said right now: Trace Legacy is damn smart when he wants to be.
I decided to go back and look up the pages I was thinking of when I made my arguments. This is the page that I believe confirms that the sole (or at least primary) purpose of building the tower on the Basidian islands was to weaken the Basitin from within so they no longer pose any threat. Also it's where Trace evil-geniusness is revealed :twisted: . And this is where it's revealed that the Templar might have taken over human coin-making, and are therefore becoming the main human economic power.

I agree with what PhycoKrusk has been saying: if the tower managed to subvert the Basitins, then destroying the Keidran would take little effort, at which point humanity, leaded by the Templar, would become the dominant race. And by keeping magic only to themselves, the Templar would create a class structure that is guaranteed to keep them at the top pretty much indefinitely. Phyco put it perfectly:
PhycoKrusk wrote:Magic is a powerful tool, and control of magic, especially through a monopoly as you suggested, would cement them as an economic powerhouse. And once you control the economy, you control the world.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#29 Post by avwolf »

PhycoKrusk wrote:Why would the Templar price mana crystals at all? After they take over everything, simply require all magic applications to be performed either by a Templar, or by an agent appointed to act on their behalf. The more power you take out of the hands of the common folk, the easier it is to control them.
Considering that Keith was able to purchase a bag of mana crystals, they must not be a strongly regulated substance. Considering that they occur naturally, I don't think the Templar can exert that much control over the use and sale of mana crystals. Remember, prior to Trace's ascendancy, the Templar were pretty much just a paramilitary mage guild. They would be hired to guard the borders from Keidran raids, or to make surgical strikes into Keidran territory. Their wider goals of military, societal, and probably economic control are relatively new. I wouldn't be surprised if Trace instituted the production of currency (probably under Euchre's direction). Economic dominance would play to their advantage. They've already established themselves as the only mages to be taken seriously -- they're the ones who are hired when pretty much any magical activity needs done, from the looks of things. Since the Towers stand as much as a reminder of the Templar's power as they do actually protect Humans from Keidran, coinage that too reminds the populace of the strength and prestige of the Templar
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Re: Magic and Technology

#30 Post by Sebbie »

avwolf wrote:They've already established themselves as the only mages to be taken seriously -- they're the ones who are hired when pretty much any magical activity needs done, from the looks of things. Since the Towers stand as much as a reminder of the Templar's power as they do actually protect Humans from Keidran, coinage that too reminds the populace of the strength and prestige of the Templar
That's very true - they can play to the psychology of the masses to assert their dominance over any other organization, be it human or non-human.

By the way, where do non-Templars (Eric, for example) learn how to use magic? Do the Templar also train non-Templars, or can the usage of magic be, say, passed down from parent to child? If the former, then that puts the Templar in a position to control all magic at its source - it wouldn't matter who they sold mana crystals to if they didn't teach anyone how to use them. I suspect that magic can be learned without being trained by Templars, but it's something I wanted to consider.

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