Human & Lupusad - Of Men and Wolves [Mature Content]

[anonfox123]

Wait, so did that meeting with all those important pricks happen for real or no? The way its written makes it seem like Jakob is tripping balls after getting hit in the head maybe.

But then again maybe not? Sometimes I read too fast.

It did happen. He was suffering from concussion and collapsed in the middle of it.

I see. Man, so many opportunities for a Renegade interrupt... I guess Jakob would play a Paragon Shepard if he lived in the time of PC games and Mass Effect...

[FrogSteaks]

Oh man, I actually had to stop for a moment when I got to the part about Taima. It's just heartbreaking seeing the conseqeunces of all the unrest going on. People are dead. The citizens are no longer safe. Everyone seems to be on edge. And I somehow feel as if we have yet to see the worst of all this. I guess it's safe to say that the [censored] has officially hit the fan.

Only two replies this time? You're breaking my heart, guys.

And yet only a two week turnaround between chapters this time. Maybe we should reply less often. Seriously though, nice to see a new chapter so soon.

[Bellhead]

Jakob got hit, and got a concussion from, being hit in the head. And even after that, he walked across town to get to this meeting, where he was insulted, and hit with a barrag of crudely-concieved ideas from arrogant, racist nobility, to all but destroy innocent civillians they themselves threw into unrest. Old Man Tholmes presumeably got himself KILLED by trying to keep his profits, and his son has learned nothing from it. And even now, people are scared to walk to the corner store to buy food and medicine.

It's about time somebody stepped up to the plate. Too bad it's after the final pitch.

I was suprised by the sudden chapter as well. It's quite nice to see it so soon, but make sure you don't burn yourself out, eh?
I would have replied sooner, but I've been unusually busy this past weekend. Sorry about that.

[Bachaddict]

I need to subscribe here so I don't go months without checking for updates. Excellent chapters!

[amenon]

Catching up after three chapters. (And how the hell were they all on the same page?!)

Comments:

24:
- So Jakob has figured out not to harbor slaves or criminals... after not only harboring, but employing Rakai? Okay
- Considering the timelapse, it seems really unlikely that they'd only be having the double-dating conversation now. (And was that an implication that Halil knows the score?)
- I liked the meeting of the slave owners. Felt right to me.
- Pretty cool poisoning, too. And interesting that it could be someone we know.

25:
- Not sure I buy Taima rushing to the barricades.
- Should'a taken lupusad escorts, too, for Jessamine/Taima, up to near the barricades
- Aww, inappropriate public nuzzling!

26:
- Just one soldier to fetch him? Really?
- (And since he turned out to be there under an agreement: No lupusads keeping an eye on him? Really?)
- Starving them out is a pretty solid strategy.
- Why exactly is the bishop briefing the Kingsley's servants? That's very much a Kingsley job.
-- And a much better audience for the noblesse oblige speech would have been... the actual nobles

Cross-chapter: The concussion sequence felt pretty forced. Kind of a farcical way for Jakob to go out, too, especially after he'd just stupidly heroed the night before.

Spoiler!

24:
after being targeted a similar incident last year.
who known to harbour
what else to we know
may have simply have been
They’re people that I respect and care about, just as they do for me. [Might be fine, but feels a little off to me.]
And it’s never more evident when we [than when we?]
Hunted down and thrown back in their cage with disregard? [With disregard feels off to me. With no regard? Something else?]
At the risk of preaching to converted
seems to be becoming to be one of them
Zyanya asked with mock disapproval, entering the room and closing the door behind him. [gender chaaaaange]

25:
the sergeant and another guard was to escort
one kneeling while the other stood behind, aiming their rifles at a riotous crowd of armed lupusad hurling. [Guess they've been drinking... ]
The streets were the last place she wanted her love, even he would know better than to get into danger. [Is that supposed to be 'even if he would'?]
Perhaps it was too much for hopeful

26:
pouring over a series of documents
received a mixed reception [a bit naff]
The estate was already a buzz of activity [abuzz with activity?]
There was nothing more he respected than

[Jonesy]

Catching up after three chapters. (And how the hell were they all on the same page?!)

Comments:

24:
- So Jakob has figured out not to harbor slaves or criminals... after not only harboring, but employing Rakai? Okay
- Considering the timelapse, it seems really unlikely that they'd only be having the double-dating conversation now. (And was that an implication that Halil knows the score?)
- I liked the meeting of the slave owners. Felt right to me.
- Pretty cool poisoning, too. And interesting that it could be someone we know.

25:
- Not sure I buy Taima rushing to the barricades.
- Should'a taken lupusad escorts, too, for Jessamine/Taima, up to near the barricades
- Aww, inappropriate public nuzzling!

26:
- Just one soldier to fetch him? Really?
- (And since he turned out to be there under an agreement: No lupusads keeping an eye on him? Really?)
- Starving them out is a pretty solid strategy.
- Why exactly is the bishop briefing the Kingsley's servants? That's very much a Kingsley job.
-- And a much better audience for the noblesse oblige speech would have been... the actual nobles

Cross-chapter: The concussion sequence felt pretty forced. Kind of a farcical way for Jakob to go out, too, especially after he'd just stupidly heroed the night before.

Spoiler!

24:
after being targeted a similar incident last year.
who known to harbour
what else to we know
may have simply have been
They’re people that I respect and care about, just as they do for me. [Might be fine, but feels a little off to me.]
And it’s never more evident when we [than when we?]
Hunted down and thrown back in their cage with disregard? [With disregard feels off to me. With no regard? Something else?]
At the risk of preaching to converted
seems to be becoming to be one of them
Zyanya asked with mock disapproval, entering the room and closing the door behind him. [gender chaaaaange]

25:
the sergeant and another guard was to escort
one kneeling while the other stood behind, aiming their rifles at a riotous crowd of armed lupusad hurling. [Guess they've been drinking... ]
The streets were the last place she wanted her love, even he would know better than to get into danger. [Is that supposed to be 'even if he would'?]
Perhaps it was too much for hopeful

26:
pouring over a series of documents
received a mixed reception [a bit naff]
The estate was already a buzz of activity [abuzz with activity?]
There was nothing more he respected than

Wow, I really [censored] up these last few chapters.

More stuff to fix for the rewrite, I guess. Would have been nice to know before I made multiple chapters on [censored] foundations.

[amenon]

Wow, I really [censored] up these last few chapters.

People clearly liked 'em, so I'm not sure how despondent you should be getting A lot of these are single line edits, too, even if you agree with my complaints.

Also, my memory isn't the greatest, so I might be off-base about Taima. But still... even if that would be in character for her, it's still a really dumb way to get herself killed, which I think lessens the impact. The best I can come up with is that maybe some of her pack are out when things start going down -- on an errand for Milton, or skipping school, whatever -- and so she goes looking for them (and has some reason to think they'd be in that direction.) Jakob still tries to stop her, she still gets pissy at him about what the humans are doing to the lupusad. But she's about her pack first, right? So why's she leaving them behind to go to the barricades, exactly?

The concussion sequence taken as a whole raises a number of questions. From the confrontation with the soldier, I expected there to be a (heavily) armed troop outside. (Which wouldn't work in full view, since we know it turned into a standoff, but at that point it's what I would have expected.) Since that wasn't the case... why would the lupusads even let that soldier into the district armed? And without an escort? Why would he be so bent up about Rakai if he's already there on the permission of other armed lupusads? And why'd they send a mook to fetch nobility, anyway? (That last one isn't all that implausible in itself, but when you start asking questions, the questions keep rolling.)

I think it would be fine to have that soldier there, and I think it would also be fine to have him punch Jakob out. (Who is being a bit of an idiot, true to his character. Of course you go to the governor. You delegate the rest. Do The Thing Only You Can Do. Noblesse oblige, ironically enough ) And it would be okay to have that lead to a concussion. But that's such a chump way for him to get injured in a warzone, that maybe it feels more light and humoric than it should in the circumstances? And it's sort of the same thing as with Taima: Jakob does something stupid, gets a bad result. Taima died, Jakob was prevented from doing Important Things (or prevented from properly failing to do important things, as the case may be.) Unless you specifically want it to be his fault that he fails at the assembly (and I don't think you do?) then it shouldn't be his fault that he got the concussion. If you want to hero it up a bit, you could have lupusads throwing rocks at the soldier escorting him, and he gets hit trying to stop it.

And there's no problem with having the bishop speak to the disgruntled servants, but he shouldn't be the one telling them what to do. (Though the quickest fix might be to just add a line about Lord Kingsley having told them to follow the bishop's direction. Still feels a little iffy, though.) The 'sermon' itself is a little pat, but I don't really have a problem with it. It just raises the thought 'Why didn't you say this to the actual nobles?' And maybe he did, and maybe that, too, is why he has it in mind. But in that case adding a line to that effect would be good. And then Zyanya gets to be optimistic -- or not -- that maybe some of them listened.

In all instances, to one degree or another, I felt like 'This is happening because the author needs it to happen.'

Oh, and another thought: Wouldn't that comment about his lupusad fetish, or whatever it was exactly before he passed out at the assembly, be completely beyond the pale in that group of people? You don't slander in front of those kinds of witnesses without repercussions. Never mind that the slander in this instance is actually true. It's actually a really interesting question how Jakob should handle something like that. Because it is true, but at the same time he just about has to push on the issue to keep up appearances. Some nice proper hypocrisy. (Though I guess he could refuse to treat it like an insult? Except it's an insult no matter what, since he's supposedly courting someone all proper-like. Oh, what a tangled web we weave...)

More stuff to fix for the rewrite, I guess. Would have been nice to know before I made multiple chapters on [censored] foundations.

I think you're rather exaggerating, but I know the feels. I don't know if I get to do something I want to do in my next story, because of what's in the stuff I already released. And I can't even get a good guess going, because I don't have remotely enough feedback. So I'm working mostly blind, and if the story I want to tell doesn't work, I get to cannibalize it to salvage something more cohesive instead. And wouldn't that be fun

[Jonesy]

Wow, I really [censored] up these last few chapters.

People clearly liked 'em, so I'm not sure how despondent you should be getting A lot of these are single line edits, too, even if you agree with my complaints.

Also, my memory isn't the greatest, so I might be off-base about Taima. But still... even if that would be in character for her, it's still a really dumb way to get herself killed, which I think lessens the impact. The best I can come up with is that maybe some of her pack are out when things start going down -- on an errand for Milton, or skipping school, whatever -- and so she goes looking for them (and has some reason to think they'd be in that direction.) Jakob still tries to stop her, she still gets pissy at him about what the humans are doing to the lupusad. But she's about her pack first, right? So why's she leaving them behind to go to the barricades, exactly?

The concussion sequence taken as a whole raises a number of questions. From the confrontation with the soldier, I expected there to be a (heavily) armed troop outside. (Which wouldn't work in full view, since we know it turned into a standoff, but at that point it's what I would have expected.) Since that wasn't the case... why would the lupusads even let that soldier into the district armed? And without an escort? Why would he be so bent up about Rakai if he's already there on the permission of other armed lupusads? And why'd they send a mook to fetch nobility, anyway? (That last one isn't all that implausible in itself, but when you start asking questions, the questions keep rolling.)

I think it would be fine to have that soldier there, and I think it would also be fine to have him punch Jakob out. (Who is being a bit of an idiot, true to his character. Of course you go to the governor. You delegate the rest. Do The Thing Only You Can Do. Noblesse oblige, ironically enough ) And it would be okay to have that lead to a concussion. But that's such a chump way for him to get injured in a warzone, that maybe it feels more light and humoric than it should in the circumstances? And it's sort of the same thing as with Taima: Jakob does something stupid, gets a bad result. Taima died, Jakob was prevented from doing Important Things (or prevented from properly failing to do important things, as the case may be.) Unless you specifically want it to be his fault that he fails at the assembly (and I don't think you do?) then it shouldn't be his fault that he got the concussion. If you want to hero it up a bit, you could have lupusads throwing rocks at the soldier escorting him, and he gets hit trying to stop it.

And there's no problem with having the bishop speak to the disgruntled servants, but he shouldn't be the one telling them what to do. (Though the quickest fix might be to just add a line about Lord Kingsley having told them to follow the bishop's direction. Still feels a little iffy, though.) The 'sermon' itself is a little pat, but I don't really have a problem with it. It just raises the thought 'Why didn't you say this to the actual nobles?' And maybe he did, and maybe that, too, is why he has it in mind. But in that case adding a line to that effect would be good. And then Zyanya gets to be optimistic -- or not -- that maybe some of them listened.

In all instances, to one degree or another, I felt like 'This is happening because the author needs it to happen.'

Oh, and another thought: Wouldn't that comment about his lupusad fetish, or whatever it was exactly before he passed out at the assembly, be completely beyond the pale in that group of people? You don't slander in front of those kinds of witnesses without repercussions. Never mind that the slander in this instance is actually true. It's actually a really interesting question how Jakob should handle something like that. Because it is true, but at the same time he just about has to push on the issue to keep up appearances. Some nice proper hypocrisy. (Though I guess he could refuse to treat it like an insult? Except it's an insult no matter what, since he's supposedly courting someone all proper-like. Oh, what a tangled web we weave...)

More stuff to fix for the rewrite, I guess. Would have been nice to know before I made multiple chapters on [censored] foundations.

I think you're rather exaggerating, but I know the feels. I don't know if I get to do something I want to do in my next story, because of what's in the stuff I already released. And I can't even get a good guess going, because I don't have remotely enough feedback. So I'm working mostly blind, and if the story I want to tell doesn't work, I get to cannibalize it to salvage something more cohesive instead. And wouldn't that be fun

I guess I can find a way of making it all less conceited. But that's for the rewrite. I couldn't even bring myself to look at the story today, so I doubt doing a mini-rewrite would accomplish anything. May as well push on and hope for the best.

I just wish this stuff didn't bother me as much as it did. I know criticism should be welcome when it's constructive, but it really bugs me. There's so many stupid things I've done earlier in the story that just keeps coming back to haunt me. The plan to fix it all later doesn't help when I need to actually finish the thing first.

[amenon]

I guess I can find a way of making it all less conceited. But that's for the rewrite. I couldn't even bring myself to look at the story today, so I doubt doing a mini-rewrite would accomplish anything. May as well push on and hope for the best.

Look, clearly people like your stuff a lot. Always keep that in mind.

I just wish this stuff didn't bother me as much as it did. I know criticism should be welcome when it's constructive, but it really bugs me. There's so many stupid things I've done earlier in the story that just keeps coming back to haunt me. The plan to fix it all later doesn't help when I need to actually finish the thing first.

I can just keep to the typos, if that would be more helpful? This is quite a bit of work for me, too, so I don't exactly want to go to the trouble if it's just going to discourage you.

It's a tough format you're working in. (Though I'm kinda thinking of doing a serial eventually. But even then it's a story I've already completely outlined, and it'll be a lot shorter than H&L is.) But... think about what Tom's dealing with. Nearing thirteen years in, with all of us here arguing about all of it, and he can't really change any of it, even after he's done, because it would be an insane amount of work to make more than minor changes. So chin up. You still get to edit if you want.

[Jonesy]

I guess I can find a way of making it all less conceited. But that's for the rewrite. I couldn't even bring myself to look at the story today, so I doubt doing a mini-rewrite would accomplish anything. May as well push on and hope for the best.

Look, clearly people like your stuff a lot. Always keep that in mind.

The fact that people enjoy it is the main reason I keep doing it. Also why I'm hoping to publish it after the rewrite, if it means reaching more people and maybe leading to a career.

I just wish this stuff didn't bother me as much as it did. I know criticism should be welcome when it's constructive, but it really bugs me. There's so many stupid things I've done earlier in the story that just keeps coming back to haunt me. The plan to fix it all later doesn't help when I need to actually finish the thing first.

I can just keep to the typos, if that would be more helpful? This is quite a bit of work for me, too, so I don't exactly want to go to the trouble if it's just going to discourage you.

It's a tough format you're working in. (Though I'm kinda thinking of doing a serial eventually. But even then it's a story I've already completely outlined, and it'll be a lot shorter than H&L is.) But... think about what Tom's dealing with. Nearing thirteen years in, with all of us here arguing about all of it, and he can't really change any of it, even after he's done, because it would be an insane amount of work to make more than minor changes. So chin up. You still get to edit if you want.

No, your feedback's consistently been some of the best I've received. I may not like having my work picked apart, but if I want to make the most of its potential, it needs to happen. At least, when you're able to.

Still, I'm thankful I've yet to see a pronoun war...

[amenon]

The fact that people enjoy it is the main reason I keep doing it. Also why I'm hoping to publish it after the rewrite, if it means reaching more people and maybe leading to a career.

Right. And I think your core story is worthwhile. If I didn't, I wouldn't still be reading. Or would never have caught up in the first place, really.

(But it does need significant amounts of work to be what I'd personally call publishable, and even then it absolutely is way too long for traditional publishing. But this being the modern era, e-book selfpub? Not a lot of cost to it, apart from the eternity it takes to actually write a book. Get a good cover commissioned... you've got people who are hype for it, and that's the biggest thing no matter how you're published. I read it on recommendation. That's pretty much the only way anyone reads anything... so you need people who'll recommend your stuff, or marketing. Eh, just listen to Writing Excuses if you don't already. It's the thing to do if you're serious about being a writer, and they cover the business side a lot as well.)

No, your feedback's consistently been some of the best I've received. I may not like having my work picked apart, but if I want to make the most of its potential, it needs to happen. At least, when you're able to.

Right, will do. I mostly fell behind because I've been busy with my own writing / other stuff and you released back-to-back pretty fast. I'll probably get to the next chapter faster. Though, I make no promises. I am writing again, the idiot that I am.

Still, I'm thankful I've yet to see a pronoun war...

Drop a few more 'him's for Zyanya, and I'll see what I can get started

[Warrl]

I just wish this stuff didn't bother me as much as it did. I know criticism should be welcome when it's constructive, but it really bugs me. There's so many stupid things I've done earlier in the story that just keeps coming back to haunt me. The plan to fix it all later doesn't help when I need to actually finish the thing first.

Too bad that this, the closest thing to a genuine TwoKinds fanfic I've seen, is actually only written in a vaguely-similar universe, and you're the only writer in that universe.

The Wapsi Square fanfic community is close to a dozen people writing in a universe that is directly derived from the canon comic universe. (Plus a few completely random outtakes, including a Girl Genius crossover.) I've written canon characters, and other writers' self-insert characters, and other characters created by other writers - in fact I've pretty much taken over a character that someone else created for one scene. With that many writers trying to maintain a consistent shared fanon universe, there is actually a separate Wapsi Writers' Guild forum (no link, invitation only) where we critique each other's work not only for fanon continuity, but also in general.

That really helps...

[amenon]

Too bad that this, the closest thing to a genuine TwoKinds fanfic I've seen, is actually only written in a vaguely-similar universe, and you're the only writer in that universe.

I feel like it's vaguely insulting to call an original work 'the closest thing to a genuine fanfic of x'. Possibly more than vaguely insulting. H&L lists Twokinds as one of its inspirations, but... they're not very much alike at all, so I think the inspiration drawn is something relatively abstract. I write almost exclusively derivative myself, and while it does have its own unique challenges, I consider it to very much be easy mode compared to actually creating your own world and complete cast. And Jonesy's is an ambituous world, at that, with complicated worldbuilding interactions.

You probably weren't going for a backhanded compliment, but that's what it felt like to me, so I thought I should say something.

(Actual best Twokinds fanfic? avwolf's Desire for Orders. If NSFW is disqualified, then I haven't really read anything except one unreleased one, which was actually pretty good, but namedropping a work that can't be looked up makes no sense. And 'best of one' is a bit of weak statement.)

[Warrl]

Too bad that this, the closest thing to a genuine TwoKinds fanfic I've seen, is actually only written in a vaguely-similar universe, and you're the only writer in that universe.

I feel like it's vaguely insulting to call an original work 'the closest thing to a genuine fanfic of x'. Possibly more than vaguely insulting.

Hm... interesting. I don't see it as insulting at all. In fact I could take offence at your implied distinction between "original work" and fanfic; at the minimum I need to point out that it's a very unreliable generalization.

Writing a fanfic is easier because you don't have to build the world yourself, yet at the same time harder because you can't build the world as you would like it to be for your story; you typically even have a bunch of characters imposed upon you. Fanfics can be written very well or very poorly, and can be very original or very derivative - just like any other fiction.

What I meant by the statement that offends you is that, of the fiction I've read in this forum, H&L is the one most similar - by far - to TwoKinds. Humans and a furry race in a somewhat hostile relationship; pre-mechanical culture; furry slaves; a cross-species romance involving significant characters. In contrast, the others either lack humans or have a tiny number of humans as furless, but otherwise ordinary, beings - and have a vastly higher tech level, with space flight being common.

And yet, H&L really isn't a TK fanfic either. The worlds are not all that similar beyond what's stated above. Beyond having no places or characters in common. H&L apparently has one furry race versus not less than seven (in at least two species); if there's a furry realm it isn't a significant factor (so far); there's no hint of magic; the population density is much higher, and the economy more industrialized (probably still pre-mechanization)...

[Jonesy]

there's no hint of magic

Funny, I was originally intending to have magic in the setting. Even developed a system wherein it's extremely niche both in terms of physics (magic can only be channeled with the assistance of certain rare materials crafted into wands and robes and whatnot) and philosophy (technology and commerce offer immediate gain for supposedly anyone, whereas magic takes a long time to learn on top of the possession of rare items).

Still, I can always hold onto the idea for a sequel that features a Shadowrun-esque return of magic, possibly alongside a new magic-focused species along with it to meddle with the precarious balance between the known species. But first things first.

Also, did anyone else see the new emotes?